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council-of-fools.com A forum for discussions for the goldenbough game group
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Today I will discuss classes. Classes should be chosen with an idea of what makes sense. By this I mean, they should make sense to the campaign and the history and build of a character. If your character is from a western european type culture, he shouldnt be selecting classes from the Oriental Adventures book. These tomes where meant to be stand alones and used in an environment built on that culture. Now if they get incorporated into the game by the DM, thats a different story, but you shouldnt be arbitrarily picking classes from regions or areas your character has never been to. Just because you the player have heard of a shugenja or a dervish, doesnt mean your character knows what that is. This doesnt mean he hasnt heard rumors or legends either. But he should then have to do research about that and turn it into a trek to find the answers. To this end I say please show me your next class selection before you take it. Things from the PH or the DMG are exceptions, those are core classes and no need for approval. Anything else needs my approval if you are playing in my games. This does not count for standing characters nor characters from someone else campaign. I wont step in that dookie. Also, I dont thnk certain classes were meant to be combined, since source books are made and published by different folks sometimes and dont realize what they have made can be combined with something else to make an obscenity, look up Pun Pun the kobold on google to see what I mean. So source books and materials should be screened by DM's before allowing them.
As a side not, this can turn into a great adventure. I did this with Sy. It was great. Her classes and selection process came from her personal experiences in the game. She went to far and away exotic places and learned of these things. She would hear of great swordsman and seek them out to learn from them. Bill ran these encounters and role-played them with me. It wasnt always an adventure, sometimes just meeting with a guy and a montage later I have a new ability. But I did have to seek the guy out. |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I have decided along with Bry that we will allow the use of Keen to stack with Improved Critical. It makes no sense that they cannot be combined as they are from separate sources. One comes from a magical augmentation the other from your skill. So take the feat and the weapon with keen on it, they work in unison. |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I will not allow the feats Karmic Strike to be used in unison with Robilar's Gambit. I know that Wizards allows this, I read their errata. I wont be using their ruling. They also ruled you cant use Cleave with Whilrwind Attack. I just feel it is unbalanced for the game and can be abused. You still get uses out of both, Karmic Strike is good when you lose initiative and Robilar's Gambit is good for when you win. They can also be used in the same combat against multiple opponents. Ones that go before you in initiative order and those that go after. But they have drawbacks. Karmic Strike gives you a -4 to your AC to everyone that round, and Robilar's Gambit gives your opponent a +4 to hit you and damage. The other reason I am not allowing these to be combined for effect is that it doesn't gel with their rulings on what provokes attacks of this kind. For instance, the rule states you cannot get more than one attack of opportunity for a given opportunity. Both of these feats rely on your opponent attacking you, one for just taking the swing and the other hitting you. However it is the same action, an attack. Just because the feats are activated by different results of the attack, they are still based on a single action, an attack. I know this is a close call, but I am saying they don't stack with each other.
Last edited by Mikill on Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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eightball
Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 70
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| ha, I told u that they could be used together, but if you want to rule it otherwise, I can understand, since some would claim that this combo is broken. Cool now that I know, it works for me. |
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eightball
Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 70
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: question |
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| now what if a fighter who has four attacks hits with the first two and misses with the last two. Can you use karmic strike with the first two and the gambit with the last two since they did not hit but you were swung upon? |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:22 am Post subject: Re: question |
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| eightball wrote: | | now what if a fighter who has four attacks hits with the first two and misses with the last two. Can you use karmic strike with the first two and the gambit with the last two since they did not hit but you were swung upon? |
This would be stupid but yeah. Since you would have a -4 to AC and a +4 to being hit by this guy, sure. Using Either is fine in this case since they both do the same thing. You hit a guy who either swung at you and hit or just swung at you. And if you announced you are using Karmic Strike in the round and went first before the guy and allowed him to go first, you get to use Robilars Gambit. Thats a lot of pain the ass. If you went first, just use the Robilars Gambit and give him the +4 to hit you. If he went before you, use the Karmic Strike to get your licks in with the -4 to your AC. The only benefit that makes a slight difference is that Karmic Strike is resolved simultaneously with your opponents attack. This can be interesting but it doesnt mean a whole lot in the grand scheme.
Last edited by Mikill on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| eightball wrote: | | ha, I told u that they could be used together, but if you want to rule it otherwise, I can understand, since some would claim that this combo is broken. Cool now that I know, it works for me. |
I wasn't sure about their ruling as I said, but I was sure of the rules on Attacks of Opportunity. They allow for it because they were being liberal about what provokes the feat into activation. Being hit or just attacked. They viewed this I am sure as two separate opportunities. However as I stated I feel they missed the obvious and that was the entire thing is caused by a single opportunity. And that is why I ruled the way I did. Keep in mind this is also the rules system which allows abominations like Pun Pun. Though Pun Pun is created as an intellectual exercise and never meant to be used, it is an example of how someone can use and combine things that were never meant to be. In my game this is simply to keep out abuses. Abuses can go both ways and that just opens doors to wrongful destruction of players. |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| That reminds me. All this talk of Pun Pun and other attrocities has led me to this realization. The realms are broken. A lot of the crazy stuff being pointed out on these forums about abuses of special abilities and classes and races come directly from the realms. Pun Pun isnt unbreakable without certain hand-picked abilities from the realms. I have always despised the realms for its bloated one-up-manship. Elminster couldnt have been just a wizard, he had to be a wizard/cleric/fighter and whatever else. And he couldnt just be a level, he had to be higher than the party. In later additions, he was just so over-the-top it wasnt worth talking about. Mordenkainen is just over 20th. Rary, the most powerful wizard in the Flaeness is 25th, and only 25th. He is a 25th level wizard as well. Just a wizard. I am not saying that picking prestige classes is a bad thing. A little variety is cool. You introduce a cool new class to people and ability they never knew about and that can make a memorable experience. What I dont like is the need, almost compulsive in the realms to make everything bigger than anything else out there. Their gods on average are 10-20 levels higher then other gods for example. The NPC's its the same thing. And a multitude of classes. The stuff they dole out like manipulate form from the Serpent Kingdoms book is entirely broken and should never be allowed (this coincidentaly is the power Pun Pun uses to become The Almighty). I say all this as a simple letting off steam, and to say my piece on something that bothers me. I have seen our group grow and expand over the years. I have seen the good games and the ones that makes pencils break of their own accord it seems. I have seen abuses, cheating and I have seen wanton power gaming. I have also seen great advances in story, character and friendship. This is life. It is what it is. |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| I am planning on doing something extraordinary in my campaign. I am hoping this will gel well with the other campaigns out there. In the game Bill ran for me with Mauria a lot of things were heading in one direction and that direction was Mauria dicovering the truth about everything. Before Bill passed he had started a ball rolling with Mauria and Mitchifir of the Worlds Serpent Inn. He didnt like her. Apparently she had discovered a buried secret that made Mitchifir jealous or angry. I knew what he was doing and it was cool. I am going to try and wrap up that storyline with some dignity. It may have drastic effects on the Worlds Serpent Inn and how it interacts with our current campaigns. I want to sit down with all the DM's and tell you my plan. I am also trying to bring my campaign to a close. I want to draw a string to the bag and tie it off. It is time to make what has happened take fruit and start a new campaign. Everyone has their characters doing something major and I want that to take effect. Hevyyd in the Vesve, Miridana in the Dim Forest, Arwyn in Laokhorn, the Hierarchs in the Horned Society, and the Tower of Glory versus Iuz. So a time should be made available by everyone to get with me and help wrap things up. I want to start a new campaign by Spring/Summer. |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikill wrote: | | That reminds me. All this talk of Pun Pun and other attrocities has led me to this realization. The realms are broken. A lot of the crazy stuff being pointed out on these forums about abuses of special abilities and classes and races come directly from the realms. Pun Pun isnt unbreakable without certain hand-picked abilities from the realms. I have always despised the realms for its bloated one-up-manship. Elminster couldnt have been just a wizard, he had to be a wizard/cleric/fighter and whatever else. And he couldnt just be a level, he had to be higher than the party. In later additions, he was just so over-the-top it wasnt worth talking about. Mordenkainen is just over 20th. Rary, the most powerful wizard in the Flaeness is 25th, and only 25th. He is a 25th level wizard as well. Just a wizard. I am not saying that picking prestige classes is a bad thing. A little variety is cool. You introduce a cool new class to people and ability they never knew about and that can make a memorable experience. What I dont like is the need, almost compulsive in the realms to make everything bigger than anything else out there. Their gods on average are 10-20 levels higher then other gods for example. The NPC's its the same thing. And a multitude of classes. The stuff they dole out like manipulate form from the Serpent Kingdoms book is entirely broken and should never be allowed (this coincidentaly is the power Pun Pun uses to become The Almighty). I say all this as a simple letting off steam, and to say my piece on something that bothers me. I have seen our group grow and expand over the years. I have seen the good games and the ones that makes pencils break of their own accord it seems. I have seen abuses, cheating and I have seen wanton power gaming. I have also seen great advances in story, character and friendship. This is life. It is what it is. |
The main reason I think the realms are broken. It took me a little while to figure out why they are. It's because they are taking the classes and abilities from the horrible novels written in that world. They're interpreting the skills these people have from one type of medium to an entirely different one. It doesn't work very well. One thing I believe the writers and game creators aren't doing is thinking in terms of what is already available to them. They are not getting in touch with their Inner "Al". By that I mean, we all know Al (if I may use your name) does stuff that leaves us scratching our heads. But he thinks of what he can do with the things available by adding a twist. I think they invent powers in the book obviously to make a literary impression (I am chuckling when I say literary). Then the game designers say,"Hey! How does that translate into the game?" And then make some stuff up that breaks the game. Sometimes a skill we have can do the trick just fine. Use your tumble check to do more than jump around a threatened area. Use it to do a backflip off the wall and then strike the guy behind you. Use move silent to let that fart out in church. I want to invite you all to make the powers your characters have more interesting. Touch your inner "Al". Sometimes what we have isnt all we have. |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| I observed something interesting about the weapon and armor enhancements from the Complete Book of Eldritch Might and that they don't seem to follow the same guidelines of the other books. It is a Monte Cook book and he does tend to let things be a little on the overpowered side. Case in point, Eldritch Blasting. A +7 price bonus to a weapon that isn't listed as an epic bonus and does +6d6 force damage to foes. Now every power in the DMG goes as far up as +5 and none of them grant more than a +2d6 to damage. Its busted. Mana Wall Crushing lowers a creatures natural SR with every hit with no apparent remedy. Even Wounding is stopped by Fortification or immunity to Critical Hits. I find that broken. Also, the +1/2 price bonuses? I know they wrote that before they came up with the price additions of gold pieces just added to the cost. But they don't make sense as many of them are powers already in other tomes with better abilities. I am therefore not allowing powers from that book to be added to any further weapons or armor or what have you. Items already in the game are fine. Consider them a gift. But nothing from the Book of Eldritch Might will be allowed. The spells are similarly dubious, but I am not ready to make them unavailable as some of them are fine and others are seemingly too powerful. But that can be a case by case examination. But the weapon and armor bonuses are out. |
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Mikill
Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 507 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: spells |
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| okay kids, its that time again. I have a request of you wizardly types. Write down the spells you actually know. This will be your complete spellbook. As the rules state, wizards begin with all 0 level spells, 3 1st and 1 extra 1st level spell per intelligence modifier. You gain 2 spells of any level you can cast per new level. SO make a list and get it written. That is if you plan on playing a wizard in Oerth. If you are bringing a character over from another realm, get a list ready. That will be the list you can draw from during your pleasant stay. And keep that list as it wont change just because you jump between worlds. You will be locked into your decisions. For those epic characters that have been around a while swapping spells with other mages over years, you get some extras. You may use your current caster level as a wizard as bonus spell levels. (i.e. a 18th level wizard gets 18; 1st level spells, or 2; 9th level spells, or 9; 2nd level spells, etc., etc.) You get the idea. This is so we narrow down our lists as nobody has ALL the spells and shouldn't. If you select the class you must adhere to the rules of that class. And please make me a copy for my own records. Thanks for your cooperation friend citizen. |
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